CrapHammer: Philosophy

This is an ongoing series where I interview some of the most passionate to understand their motivations, their secrets and their advice for others.

I’m speaking with Josh Clavir, Producer and all around amazing young man, who I’ve had the pleasure of knowing as film-maker, producer, student and friend. Josh is tireless. He has limitless energy, passion and focus. And I’ve wanted to interview him for some time to understand what drives him.

One of his first big co-producing gigs just got into TIFF. The Camera of Christopher Merk. Here is a link to more information on the movie: http://tiff.net/filmsandschedules/tiff/2010/cameraandchristopher

SEAN: I wonder if there’s not a myth about the film industry that we just come out of school and we get hired into a big production somehow? When we look at some of the greats, Ridley Scott, for example, and how he started in corporate and music video for a very long time before he made the leap to the films he is now so famous for.

JOSH: Starting in the art department. I was watching this interview with him on YouTube and he talks about how he was in love with D.A. Pennebaker, the American documentary filmmaker. Like loved him, “Oh, this guy’s incredible.” So he goes to New York, as a 20-year-old or whatever it was.

And one day he met D.A. Pennebaker in an elevator, “I want to work for you.” He said, “Okay, sure. If you want to volunteer, sure. Here help our editor,” so he spent weeks getting the editor coffee. And then, eventually, after months of doing this he gets this phone call, “Hey, man, they’re hiring at the BBC. They need someone in the art department.” And Ridley is just like, “Hey, I can get paid?” So then he’s on a plane back to England. But it’s pretty funny, like, how you’re just so passionate about something, so you’re like, “Oh, I’d love to do that.” But I think what’s interesting is that he said, “I’ll take a job that pays over that any day.” And before his first feature film The Duellists, he had done, God knows how many commercials, probably like 400 by that point or something.

SEAN: So what are you passionate about? What drives you? What would cause you to fly across a country to spend all day getting someone a cup of coffee?

JOSH: I think what I’m really passionate about is story, more than anything. It’s just a compelling story, an interesting story. When I was a kid, I remember a large part of my childhood and education was storytelling, whether it was telling stories to my brother or telling stories to my friends, I was always in that role, recounting what happened in the playground or at recess.

Almost class clown but not really, more like I would just be always talking. I’d always have stories. And I spoke a lot as a kid, I was a pretty loquacious kid. I used to have teachers that would try to get me to write things down, but I had a lot of trouble writing. It was much easier for me to speak ‘cause I didn’t have that filter - that self-criticism when you go to write.

My mother is a huge film buff and she would watch Saturday Night at the Movies on TVO and there were just some excellent films: How Green Was My Valley, The Maltese Falcon, Casa Blanca, Fat City, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Through a Glass Darkly, as a kid, I watched a lot of this and I really got engaged. I was also exposed to theatre and plays, but with film, more than anything, was this idea that you could really get into someone’s psychology. And those to me were the most compelling stories - the ones where you’re seeing it from someone’s point of view. And the ability of the camera to focus on certain aspects, as well as how rich sound can be in film between the score, between the effects, between how you’re mixing and stuff.

SEAN: I’m really curious about what keeps you going. You’re certainly not making a lot of money. I’ve watched you bounce from a variety of crazy jobs and positions over the past few years. Why not abandon this path? Why not walk away? A lot of people do…

JOSH: Right. Yeah. Well, that’s because it gives my life meaning. It’s the most important thing that I do. When my brother passed away, it was an interesting time for me because it was, sure, quite terrible, but it was also quite enlightening, because I was in a position where everyone was saying, “Hey… you’ve got to find out what your brother meant to you.” And I had to try to understand myself, as well. Being mid-20s at the time, I was still living at home so it was a very weird atmosphere, very surreal. So I tried to inject, if you will, some kind of joy into my life to try to temper the sadness and stuff. So, I started to do things.

And I think a lot of people do things in a situation like this. They travel, purchase things, take up hobbies… all to see what would actually affect their behaviour. And, ultimately, at the end of the day, the only thing that I consistently found I really enjoyed doing was writing in a journal. And it wasn’t just writing thoughts, it was writing stories. It was always the same thing, it was talking about the next film, or what would make a good film or writing a script, even if the script didn’t work out, even if the dialogue was crap or the idea wasn’t fully formed.

It was creating something. I felt like I was working towards something, like there was a longer goal, and that was a huge factor for me. I wrote with a friend for a couple of months in the spring and that was the most fun I’d had doing anything, whether it was travelling, whether it was hanging out with friends, whether it was sex, or any of that. Nothing compared to that period of creation. Because you just felt like, “I know this is maybe not going to work out the way I want, but I’m glad that I’m doing it,” you know?

After that period I knew for sure that I couldn’t be doing anything else. Like, whatever “normal” job I might do, I knew that I’d be repressing a part of myself. I’d always need to have that aspect of creating something, creating a story or working on an idea.

So I think that’s what allows me to work on projects for free or next to no money. I look at this as a long process. I don’t ever think that I’m going to get to the point of knowing that, “Oh, I’ve done it. I’ve hit this mark.” I don’t think that’s ever going to be the case, and it doesn’t really matter because the process is really fun.

SEAN: So, a lot of people assume that some of us are born with well defined goals – that we know what we want to be. You were talking about just enjoying the process. What if it’s a project with friends and the story sucks. Would you still enjoy it?

JOSH: Yes, but not as much. There’s a lot of times when you’re like, “Oh, I don’t think this story is fully fleshed out,” and I have a difference of opinion with the author. I guess what I enjoy in those cases is refining my skills. <laughs>

So we’ve got the script and maybe it’s not the best script, but we can add things. What can we do, from the production standpoint, to make it as good as possible? What can we do to fix aspects of it? And I think that is always a good experience because you’re forced to kind of think on your feet and learn to adapt, which really is the number one rule in anything. Being creative is being able to adapt when someone throws you a curve ball and say, “Okay well, that doesn’t work.”

SEAN: How does it feel when you have to do that?

JOSH: It feels good as long as you’re able to do it as a group. I think what really derails people’s interest in the process, and people can get really pissed off about it, is when their ability to make an impact has been reduced. We all want to be heard. And it’s hard when you don’t have that kind of say and you feel like you’re just, essentially, treading water.

There are lots of little elements where if you can’t make an impact, especially as a producer, it can be, for sure, very disempowering. You don’t want to be as involved and it can taint future experiences, especially, if you’re being paid. I think that’s the worst. If you’re being paid to be a hatchet man for a production, I think this can be the hardest part of my job. So, I would add that the greatest part about free projects is that you usually have a stronger voice.

SEAN: Let’s talk about your life and the choices you make. Like running to LA for your friend’s school production and stuff like that. Do you think people would say that you are following a “safe” path?

JOSH: No, not at all. It’s definitely not the safe path.

SEAN: Would you see it as unsafe, though?

JOSH: I would say that I don’t take as many risks as others in the industry do, but I certainly take risks. I don’t know if I would use the word “unsafe” ‘cause, to me, it has more of a negative ring. But it also isn’t a question for me. I have to do these things. I can’t stop myself. And that’s the hard part because it’s fucking stupid and I know I shouldn’t do it but, “I’m still going to do it,” you know?

It’s like the Bright Eyes lyric, “I’d rather be working for a paycheque than waiting to win the lottery.” To me, working for a paycheque doesn’t mean working nine to five. It means continuing to get out there and work on what you love. I know a guy who has been working to get the same feature film produced for over 10 years and doing nothing else. That’s like waiting to win the lottery, and I’m too pragmatic and conservative a person to fall for that.

Being in the industry doesn’t mean you have to be a starving artist, but it does mean that if you believe in a project and it’s for free and it’s for a friend or something, then you absolutely need to find a way to do it and there’s no question of saying “no.” Because then what was all this for? Why did you waste your time fucking going to Los Angeles, going to film school or doing any of the other projects?

SEAN: Talk about that, because we both know people who say they want to get involved in film and I would say 80 to 90% of the time these people don’t show up. They’re not reliable. They won’t put in the 14-hour gruelling days. But you are different. That’s what’s always struck me about you, that you’re going to come through. Where does that come from? Is it tied to the passion and enjoyment?

JOSH: Yeah. Part of it is taking pride in what you do. And it always comes down to the craft. It’s like you want to be good at something, you know? You see so many things that aren’t working out and you don’t want to be that. You would like to be more certain, you’d like to be less changeable, less fickle than a lot of people. You like to come through. And I think a lot of that, especially, in your role as a producer, is you want to be that person on set and through the project who helps to steer the course. When the director’s having second thoughts, when the writer doesn’t know what he’s going to write next, when the editor’s upset about something, you want to be the one everyone can turn to.

I’ve always enjoyed that aspect of management. I like the leadership role. I’m digressing a tiny bit, but I think it’s an interesting insight that I’ve had about myself. I’m one of those people that needs to be a frontrunner. And I think that’s because of my personal competition with myself. I think anyone’s that’s competitive really is just competitive with themselves.

I always have the burden of, “If this doesn’t come through, it’s on your head - you were responsible for this,” driving me. I crave it. And so a lot of the time I’ll go out of my way to take responsibility for things because I like the pressure that that puts on me to succeed. Maybe that can be self-destructive sometimes, but I think that this is also what I really enjoy.

SEAN: Can you give me an example of where you haven’t been so driven? I’ve never seen you without that drive or commitment.

JOSH: <laugh>. Yeah, I don’t know if it happens. I know that I’ve gotten really resentful, even as a kid, when I tried to organize camping trips with my other friends, who are great guys, but total fucking boneheads when it comes to the details. And I remember just being, like, so frustrated when someone wouldn’t return a phone call or, forget to bring the charcoal. On the following trip I would pick up charcoal, so there would be like redundant auxiliary charcoal, ‘cause I knew he would probably forget to bring the charcoal again.

I think a lot of it is a control thing which I think I also have to learn to ease off of. Because, I know for myself, I can get frustrated and blame myself for certain situations, which is totally unfair, because things happen that I can’t control. But for me, it’s not an option. If my name’s going on it I would like it to be the best that I can realistically make it.

SEAN: So, at the beginning you talked about how the act of creating actually brings enjoyment to you. That’s something that I would say almost everyone that I interact with struggles with. Hell, I struggle with it! We are always asking ourselves, “What’s my passion? What’s my thing? What’s my future? What’s my dream job?“ And, I don’t know if this is a fair question, but how do you teach people to just understand what they enjoy?

JOSH: I’ve always been so hyper-focused on my goal. Not a goal. It’s a desire, a strong desire, a passion really, to tell a really compelling story and to move people with something that matters. There was a time, though, when I was a kid, that I wanted to be a psychiatrist. This lasted for a long time, for years.

I really think it comes down to what we yearn to do on a daily basis. And when you take away things like, just the basic appetite of desires (food and sex, new things, new technology, new clothes, and trips) people will start to gravitate towards certain things. Sometimes that’s just connecting with other people, sometimes that’s music.

I know, for my brother, it was a big thing figuring out what he wanted to do. He would spend a lot of his time talking to his friends online and recommending songs that he felt would inspire them. He had a friend that was in Afghanistan, and he would write him all the time and that guy’s still really affected by what my brother wrote. Eventually my brother started to realize he kind of liked music a lot. Not that he wanted to necessarily become a musician, he kind of realized that wasn’t for him. But he loved playing the piano and listening to music. He couldn’t work without it. So the more he thought about it the more he was like, “Well, maybe I could help people with my selections of music,” and it started to become this thing of, “Well, maybe I want to be a music therapist.” And that’s something that he ultimately came to a decision that he wanted to do.

I think that it really just started with noticing that everything he was doing had this constant element in it. I have a friend who I’ve always believed should probably work for government. Since I’ve know him, he has always read the paper, every single day of his life. In fact, he always reads a couple of newspapers, every day, from like when he was 13 years old. I mean, there are not a lot of kids I went to school with that did that. And I always commented on it. He had very strong opinions on Canadian policy, foreign policy. He went on to get a bunch of degrees and now he’s doing odd jobs and is like, “Well, where should I be?” And I’ve been saying for years, “You really should consider the foreign service. Something where you can affect policies. Or PR or government relations.”

I think a lot of people just need to take the time to tune into what they love doing. Go out and do all the stuff that is just a basic primal human thing like sleep in, eat well, have sex, travel but, at the end of the day, look at what you actually do between those moments. And what you enjoy doing.

SEAN: I don’t know if there’s anything scarier to an individual, in western society, than contemplating the things that we’re really passionate about. It’s the one thing that we don’t want to admit to ourselves. It’s almost like we’ve built this world where we can ignore our passions. To actually go and investigate a passion that’s potentially at odds or unrelated to our job and our life, can be really painful.

JOSH: I don’t have a kid. I don’t have a mortgage. I don’t have a lot of debt. So I can take more risks. So in that sense, I have an advantage. But I don’t think that it has to be so dramatic where we have to take weeks off of work or anything like that. It’s just about doing the things you enjoy doing. For no other reason than for the fact that, just intrinsically, you like doing this thing. “I intrinsically like to garden. I like it, it’s interesting. I love to read about plants. Maybe I should read a book on botany.”

I really do believe that when people start doing that, regardless of whether they’re a financial analyst or a movie maker, this will make them better at their job. Maybe that’s naive, but I think everyone’s so different and when you start to tap into that difference, what you are passionate about, you’re just going to see the world in a different way and that’s incredibly valuable to everyone, organizations and people.

“I got a commerce degree, I work for a bank, blah, blah, blah,” but that’s not really who you are. What’s interesting is your background, your interests and what makes you different. And I think that it really comes down to taking the time. I’m wary to put a number on it, like a day or how many days or whatever. I know that we’re all incredibly busy.

But I believe everyone can afford the time to start a journal about what interests them. Maybe it’s a tape recording or an app on your phone that you can record your voice. What do you find yourself thinking about? “Okay, I’m going through my day. I’ve just eaten lunch. I’m back at the office. What am I doing?” and just recording it. And then just pay attention to what you enjoy doing. “Whoa, that’s really interesting. I keep wanting to read a book on how to build a kayak. It just interests me, how it’s built or the history of it.”

And then there are the people also already know what they like, “I wanted to be a rock star. Only, I’m entering my early 30s and I don’t think that’s realistic anymore, so I’m going to go take a job doing PR and promoting rock bands,” or whatever it is. I believe you have to examine what it was about an end goal or profession that you were attracted to. And I don’t ever believe its just fame. I don’t have such a cynical view of people. I think it has to do with what they love doing.

It can also be about going back to when you were a kid. What did you play with? What did you enjoy doing? What roles did you take on as a kid? Which roles did you not enjoy? And, again, that comes from getting in touch with how you think, really, on a day-to-day basis. And maybe that’s journaling, maybe that’s travelling, or whatnot, but I absolutely believe it’s all connected.

Mike Arauz's slideshare presentation on "Design for Networks" is brilliant.

Design for Networks

His thinking in the above is only surpassed by his very own post on the same topic.

I'm honored to know Mr. Arauz and pray one day we have real drinks as he keeps tantalizing me with his drink mixing tweets.

Mike's framework brought me back to some earlier blog conversations he had initiated around systems of rewards. ¹

He was exploring game design and behavioral psychology to understand how to create rewards that incent ongoing engagement and even addictive behaviors. Why we love to play some games for hours on end.

The answer was a very academic approach to "combine unexpected rewards together with reward mechanics that are clear and predictable" to best achieve sustained and steady engagement with our audiences.

What I love about what Mike has done in his latest presentation is he's managed to make a cohesive and powerful argument for relegating "engagement" to it's proper place in the digital landscape - the closet of less important measures. All hail the belittling of engagement!

So in a world where the real game is driving participation, what reward mechanics should we be putting in place?

In "Drive," Daniel Pink outlines the dilemma of external rewards in what he calls motivation 1.0/2.0. ²

"CARROTS AND STICKS: The Seven Deadly Flaws
1. They can extinguish intrinsic motivation.
2. They can diminish performance.
3. They can crush creativity.
4. They can crowd out good behavior.
5. They can encourage cheating, shortcuts, and unethical behavior.
6. They can become addictive.
7. They can foster short-term thinking."

Pink talks about the need to "instead emphasize the elements of deeper motivation - autonomy, mastery, and purpose." He explores the disconnect between our rewards systems of old which were built around repetitive tasks and the present where people are being challenged to accomplish creative tasks.

Pink cites a study where two Swedish economists tested the effect of incenting people with a monetary reward to donate blood. The book is full of study and examples galore that show how external rewards often backfire. In the case above, it led to 20% less people donating than those who were offered no incentive other than doing their social duty. "It tainted an altruistic act and 'crowded out' the intrinsic desire to do something good."

How many contests are plagued by contest hounds who care nothing about the contest, brand or issues at hand?

Interestingly, when a reward is money for a charity, the negative impact to motivation can be avoided (if done properly.)

All of this made me once again question whether the campaigns we build truly reflect the proper motivational or reward structures. And if we are building systems that drive participation, fueling the intrinsic motivators will be critical to creating systems that have higher levels of participation and more importantly that will self sustaining.

All of this caused me to pencil this slide together. It's rough and likely anything but complete but it captured some of my thoughts.

I thought I would close with my favorite quote from Pink's Drive as it points to the opportunity at hand.

"Human beings have an innate inner drive to be autonomous, self-determined, and connected to one another. And when that drive is liberated, people achieve more and live richer lives."

Footnotes:

1. Dummies Guide to Behavioral Psychology and Engagement, Craphammer.ca
2. Daniel Pink, "Drive", Riverhead Books, 2009

CrapHammer

When all you have is a craphammer, all tasks are basically... no wait...

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